Also, I would note that Winston Churchill was a noted advocate of Prison Reform during his period in the Liberal Government, which was in keeping with his general character of the time. Perhaps he may have changed tack later on in life.

Graeme Burton I suspect beat up the charming grandmother that ran the tinny house in my street in Petone. I enjoyed the occasional meal with her and was mostly oblivious to her drug dealing, she never laid a complaint.
Saw a young man yesterday who was just happy to be making a living painting and pleased I could help him He said he had headaches from a beating he received, seems one of his cousins at a party got jealous over a girl and hit him from behind and stomped him, he smiled when he told me that he broke the attackers arm (I think it was from the force of the punch to his head) He said “the strange thing is when I was in emergency getting a brain scan he was having his arm plastered.. Question was the assailant charged, No.
Last week a charming 70ish gentleman said to me he was beaten by a man who took offence at a request to stop riding his motorbike so close to the tents at a public camp ground. Was a police complaint laid Yes did they arrest him No, they will wait till camping has finished so he does not get out in bail and make more trouble.
The trouble with your argument about mental illness, and your approach to crime is this, all the people I describe above have all been victims of an assumption that violence is acceptable. Especially if there is a need to assert, dominance over others,especially if the perceived threat or frustration is high enough.

This raises a number of questions about how we bring up children, as an example I know a man in his 80;s who described how his mother would allow her boys to have fight in the parlour. Later on the young men of Wanganui, when having a disagreement would proceed to the bell-tower at Cooks garden and sort their dispute with a fistfight. With combatants often coming back arm in arm as mates. Interestingly He described a childhood full of adventure and responsibility and trust.

We on the other hand hold our children in fear both of the known and unknown they cannot proceed on there own, when they show initiative we say “they are too young ” and then when they reach a certain age where we feel we can no linger control or influence then we send them into the world with little experience of responsibility or risk taking.

Last year I spotted a young man spitting in the Main street and I challenged him, he told me to F this and that and I argued with him we parted, he was taken aback. Why did I do this because I wanted him to face his behaviour. I wanted him to face a challenge well before the man in the Camp-ground. It is men like me who will help him get him jobs, take an interest in his health, education and family. He will make it in time, unless he is influenced by those who want to use him for there own agenda, do petty crimes hand the money over, grow a small crop for the Bro’s when that happens he will probably be in a gang and it will be in the interest of the gang that he only trusts them.

My question is this Dennis, as long as you are a gang associate and you understand how gangs use violence to maintain group discipline and hegemony over their members, at the expense of personal responsibility and discipline, how can you argue a convincing vision about crime and punishment.

The old man who fought at the belltower is concerned at the rage that accompanies fighting now he fear is the lack of control leads to severe injury. HE had discipline, personal experience and rules to control his fighting. I am not sure I agree personally but it is a interesting that he credits responsibility given at a early age as the reason he coped later

Those who assaulted the three people in my stories, did not have self discipline or control , that is why they were dangerous and “three strike and your out” would have prevented all of those assaults because all had previous convictions.

Dennis good on you for good ideas and writing. but we need as a society to encourage responsibility and adventure in children and to do that people in society need to be predictable and be law abiding and gangs have a counter interest
Cheers :ep

HAMLET
God’s bodykins, man, much better: use every man
after his desert, and who should ‘scape whipping?
Use them after your own honour and dignity: the less
they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty.

Having no honour and dignity, and wishing to create a society in their image, Simon Power et al are not men but gnats.

Whether this initiative will work or not, we will have to wait and see. I suggest probably not, as those it is intended to discourage – the real hard-asses, will now adopt an approach of ‘if it’s strike 3, I may as well go for broke’, thereby increasing the risk of serious violence.

More appealing to me, however, is the suggestion that this initiative is expanded to include recidivist financial criminals. Crushing dreams, and stealing life savings – that’s REAL violence.

Then, surely, even those who worship the dollar can see that prevention is better than the cure – if only because it’s so much cheaper.