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	<title>Comments on: License to prey</title>
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		<title>By: Rob Egan</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-3186</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Egan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-3186</guid>
		<description>Are you retarded ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you retarded ?</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-703</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-703</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t see how Kiwibank could provide cheap loans in competition with loan sharks. These loans are likely never ton be paid back in full, so essentially Kiwibank would be operating a parallel welfare system that pays cash to those who ask the most. What would happen when somebody with no job, no income and existing large debts wants to buy a car? Would the bank always say yes? Or would they turn them away and keep the loan sharks in business?

I&#039;d suggest we need to move away from the situation where &quot;It is almost impossible to manage in Auckland without a car&quot;. This isn&#039;t the case in many world cities. Rather than perpetuate the problem by having government-subsidised cheap cars, we should put the money into better public transport and cheaper housing in the inner city.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t see how Kiwibank could provide cheap loans in competition with loan sharks. These loans are likely never ton be paid back in full, so essentially Kiwibank would be operating a parallel welfare system that pays cash to those who ask the most. What would happen when somebody with no job, no income and existing large debts wants to buy a car? Would the bank always say yes? Or would they turn them away and keep the loan sharks in business?</p>
<p>I&#8217;d suggest we need to move away from the situation where &#8220;It is almost impossible to manage in Auckland without a car&#8221;. This isn&#8217;t the case in many world cities. Rather than perpetuate the problem by having government-subsidised cheap cars, we should put the money into better public transport and cheaper housing in the inner city.</p>
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		<title>By: Time for National to lead on Loan Sharks &#171; Red Alert</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-629</link>
		<dc:creator>Time for National to lead on Loan Sharks &#171; Red Alert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-629</guid>
		<description>[...] ‬‪‬‪Catriona MacLennan’s recent article in Werewolf challenges John Key to show some leadership in reforming payday and fringe lenders.‬‪‬‪ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ‬‪‬‪Catriona MacLennan’s recent article in Werewolf challenges John Key to show some leadership in reforming payday and fringe lenders.‬‪‬‪ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: richgraham</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-609</link>
		<dc:creator>richgraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-609</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article Catriona. Do you advise your clients to modify their behaviour when dealing with businesses as you describe ?
An obvious one is to play the cultural &#039;game&#039; you describe the banks are doing. Their staff are neatly and cleanly dressed - they have to be, that is required by their employers. Money is a very serious business, so dressing formally, or at least neatly, indicates that one is taking the situation seriously. If one dresses and presents in a casual way, then of course it is easy for you to be treated in a casual way.
Do you recommend to your clients that they &#039;swot up&#039; on the subject before approaching moneylenders ? Do you or your network provide basic education about handling money, about how the financial systems work ? Do you provide volunteers to assist those people whose abilities or English is poor when the approach is made. What are you doing on the ground to get the message out to the people of South Auckland ? You&#039;ll not get much penetration by writing about it in this forum will you ?
Your suggestions that the &#039;government&#039; &#039;should&#039; assist by providing cheap loans etc will not work. This attitude is the same one that keeps your clients in thrall to the ratbags. The patch to salvation and a decent financial situation is to take personal responsibility, not ask the &#039;government&#039; to help. Does your network and church groups in South Auckland preach self-reliance, improving education, improving English ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article Catriona. Do you advise your clients to modify their behaviour when dealing with businesses as you describe ?<br />
An obvious one is to play the cultural &#8216;game&#8217; you describe the banks are doing. Their staff are neatly and cleanly dressed &#8211; they have to be, that is required by their employers. Money is a very serious business, so dressing formally, or at least neatly, indicates that one is taking the situation seriously. If one dresses and presents in a casual way, then of course it is easy for you to be treated in a casual way.<br />
Do you recommend to your clients that they &#8216;swot up&#8217; on the subject before approaching moneylenders ? Do you or your network provide basic education about handling money, about how the financial systems work ? Do you provide volunteers to assist those people whose abilities or English is poor when the approach is made. What are you doing on the ground to get the message out to the people of South Auckland ? You&#8217;ll not get much penetration by writing about it in this forum will you ?<br />
Your suggestions that the &#8216;government&#8217; &#8216;should&#8217; assist by providing cheap loans etc will not work. This attitude is the same one that keeps your clients in thrall to the ratbags. The patch to salvation and a decent financial situation is to take personal responsibility, not ask the &#8216;government&#8217; to help. Does your network and church groups in South Auckland preach self-reliance, improving education, improving English ?</p>
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		<title>By: George D</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-602</link>
		<dc:creator>George D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-602</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t be bothered reading all that last comment, but apparently putting controls on lending is the way to a socialist eutopia [sic]. Oh, well, I guess I&#039;m a socialist eutopian then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t be bothered reading all that last comment, but apparently putting controls on lending is the way to a socialist eutopia [sic]. Oh, well, I guess I&#8217;m a socialist eutopian then.</p>
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		<title>By: lyndon</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>lyndon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:40:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-596</guid>
		<description>Please try to keep comments less than half the length of the original post. Nobody will read them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please try to keep comments less than half the length of the original post. Nobody will read them.</p>
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		<title>By: Long John Silver</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-586</link>
		<dc:creator>Long John Silver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-586</guid>
		<description>Catriona Maclennon sounds like a newly minted barrister, one of those student loan beneficiaries ( you ask beneficiary, how, and reflect where else in the world can you borrow $70 or $100,000 for study and personal spending without a sliver of asset, yes a high risk loan offer only comes from a socialist government intervention and users are all beneficiaries). Perhaps Catrona might stick to being a barristor and specialise in that, because when you start to delve into areas outside your area of real knowledge you quickly expose your lack of market understanding.
The reason that we have tiered banking arrangements is to separate risk profiles and deal with the cost of risk. At the top, government bonds, they pay little because the default risk is little, in the middle is commerce and residential housing, risk is moderate and cost is moderate, at the lower end we have second tier finance companies that give higher risk housing and property development loans, and they charge in accordance with borrower risk, they obtain funds from a pool of lenders who lend to risk at a higher interest earning rate, (of some concern is their demise because they are the lenders of last resort to the middle class) and at the bottom we have the lenders of last resort who lend to poor families for emergencies. Only a middle income family buys a car and its a low risk investment, when a poor family buys a car its a high risk, the car is often cheap and near its lifes end, it is often used past its capacity, (overloaded, the borrower has no savings and no equity, the poorer job earner generally has less job security and they dont save, life is a series of one crisis after an other. This is your very high risk lending and whilst we middle class and barristers refer to the lenders as rogues and sharks, let us be aware that those who they deal with are very often cheats, liars, fraudsters and near-do-wells, or the  as well as being highly mobile and often untraceable. Some of the more respectable ones are often silent, obstinant, dont even acknowledge their debt and completely immovable to rectify their situation, as if by ignoring their obligation it will go away. And worse they are often counceled culturally that this is acceptable. catriona speaks as if the availibility of &quot;car&quot; or a low cost loan to purchase one, was a &quot;right&quot;, it is NOT. 

Thus the alternative is to; open lending to these high risk lenders and as a nation avoid the costly social consequences of even more expensive catastrohpes on the tax paying public, costs like; car theft, burglary, suicide and addiction and supply, house eviction, stranded travel, or close these lenders down and let the tax payer pick up the pieces and all the clean up costs as well. and pay for the borrowers who would otherwise more or less support their own shortcomings. In reality in every major city, bottom of the heap lending exists and in every country that has sought to provide an all inclusive welfare system, we have seen an immediate transition to welfare fraud and welfare abuse.
For Catrionas benefit, Act Member Roger Douglas was close to the mark in his work &quot;Closing the Circle&quot; where he advocated community led measures of self sustainability. The most likely type of operation to succeed is if an organisation like Brian Tamaki&#039;s church were to operate a membership subscribed emergency loan scheme. Under such a scheme the peer connection and religious ethics have a hope of mentoring control into the lives of the borrowers, something a commercial lender has no access to do. It is community attitude that makes for success, not regulation. 

As for a government run used car yard, I can hear used car mechanics laughing so loud, their laughter could be bottled and sold for carbon credits. 
What a eutopian farce, what a socialist daydream, what an academic boondoogle. It would be broke within a week, as the poorer elements, not one bit short of cunning, fraud and deceipt, took every opportunity to; swap bits, change plates, strip equipment, return carefully fabricated clunkers, writeoff registered wrecks, and every other form of scam and rort known to man. 
The wiley and experienced used car dealers have every moment committed trying to stay on top of their game dealing with this element of the public, and still a good many are caught out. Only the availibility of near dying clunkers at cheap prices that can be made to go one more trip around the block and the prompt finance house payout, keeps their business alive, for it is sabotaged by nearly every purchaser. Remember also that this class of purchaser does never lift the hood to clean or check the mechanics, never inspects a brake or oils a moving part, never buys a new set of tyres for safety or keeps a good paid up insurance for protection, of their own will, these consumer types most generally borrow money to buy the gas and drive till it stops, then complain about the quality of the merchandise. There is little of the element of care and prudence in practice.
In every society since Christ walked the earth, we have had an element who are waiting. They waited for the flood, They waited for the flood to drain, They waited for the sun to come up, They were still waiting when their backs were burned deep with sunburn. They wait. Do you find these persons self educating at night school, NO, they are waiting in front of TV for life&#039;s answers, do you find them evenings and weekends in the garden producing food for their families and communities, no they are waiting, mostly in the welfare queue, while state housing has thousands of barren backyards. Best choices are forethought and provisioning, these people dont make best choices. They wait for circumstances to befall them and then look for escapes. One convenient escape is the high interest lender. It is not the role of society to provide low interest loans representing low risk, with a built in subsidy by prudent taxpayers, to high risk borrowers who are in fact lifes low productivity &quot;waiters&quot;. 

There are genuine people who are in need of welfare and a few who have a genuine need for emergency assitance, for which our welfare system, health care and Mps provide access. It is just ludicrous to imagine that a &quot;car&quot; is some form of necessity or right to people who only a decade ago were &quot;waiting&quot;, waiting for a bicycle or running water. Commodities are not rights nor their possesion and use, a right, it is a privilege of prudence and work, earned and cared for.  What is a &quot;right&quot;, is the &quot;opportunity&quot; to use your God given abilities to work, and to produce, in order that you might save, repay, deploy and maintain that which you would wish, for some, a car.

Long John Silver</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catriona Maclennon sounds like a newly minted barrister, one of those student loan beneficiaries ( you ask beneficiary, how, and reflect where else in the world can you borrow $70 or $100,000 for study and personal spending without a sliver of asset, yes a high risk loan offer only comes from a socialist government intervention and users are all beneficiaries). Perhaps Catrona might stick to being a barristor and specialise in that, because when you start to delve into areas outside your area of real knowledge you quickly expose your lack of market understanding.<br />
The reason that we have tiered banking arrangements is to separate risk profiles and deal with the cost of risk. At the top, government bonds, they pay little because the default risk is little, in the middle is commerce and residential housing, risk is moderate and cost is moderate, at the lower end we have second tier finance companies that give higher risk housing and property development loans, and they charge in accordance with borrower risk, they obtain funds from a pool of lenders who lend to risk at a higher interest earning rate, (of some concern is their demise because they are the lenders of last resort to the middle class) and at the bottom we have the lenders of last resort who lend to poor families for emergencies. Only a middle income family buys a car and its a low risk investment, when a poor family buys a car its a high risk, the car is often cheap and near its lifes end, it is often used past its capacity, (overloaded, the borrower has no savings and no equity, the poorer job earner generally has less job security and they dont save, life is a series of one crisis after an other. This is your very high risk lending and whilst we middle class and barristers refer to the lenders as rogues and sharks, let us be aware that those who they deal with are very often cheats, liars, fraudsters and near-do-wells, or the  as well as being highly mobile and often untraceable. Some of the more respectable ones are often silent, obstinant, dont even acknowledge their debt and completely immovable to rectify their situation, as if by ignoring their obligation it will go away. And worse they are often counceled culturally that this is acceptable. catriona speaks as if the availibility of &#8220;car&#8221; or a low cost loan to purchase one, was a &#8220;right&#8221;, it is NOT. </p>
<p>Thus the alternative is to; open lending to these high risk lenders and as a nation avoid the costly social consequences of even more expensive catastrohpes on the tax paying public, costs like; car theft, burglary, suicide and addiction and supply, house eviction, stranded travel, or close these lenders down and let the tax payer pick up the pieces and all the clean up costs as well. and pay for the borrowers who would otherwise more or less support their own shortcomings. In reality in every major city, bottom of the heap lending exists and in every country that has sought to provide an all inclusive welfare system, we have seen an immediate transition to welfare fraud and welfare abuse.<br />
For Catrionas benefit, Act Member Roger Douglas was close to the mark in his work &#8220;Closing the Circle&#8221; where he advocated community led measures of self sustainability. The most likely type of operation to succeed is if an organisation like Brian Tamaki&#8217;s church were to operate a membership subscribed emergency loan scheme. Under such a scheme the peer connection and religious ethics have a hope of mentoring control into the lives of the borrowers, something a commercial lender has no access to do. It is community attitude that makes for success, not regulation. </p>
<p>As for a government run used car yard, I can hear used car mechanics laughing so loud, their laughter could be bottled and sold for carbon credits.<br />
What a eutopian farce, what a socialist daydream, what an academic boondoogle. It would be broke within a week, as the poorer elements, not one bit short of cunning, fraud and deceipt, took every opportunity to; swap bits, change plates, strip equipment, return carefully fabricated clunkers, writeoff registered wrecks, and every other form of scam and rort known to man.<br />
The wiley and experienced used car dealers have every moment committed trying to stay on top of their game dealing with this element of the public, and still a good many are caught out. Only the availibility of near dying clunkers at cheap prices that can be made to go one more trip around the block and the prompt finance house payout, keeps their business alive, for it is sabotaged by nearly every purchaser. Remember also that this class of purchaser does never lift the hood to clean or check the mechanics, never inspects a brake or oils a moving part, never buys a new set of tyres for safety or keeps a good paid up insurance for protection, of their own will, these consumer types most generally borrow money to buy the gas and drive till it stops, then complain about the quality of the merchandise. There is little of the element of care and prudence in practice.<br />
In every society since Christ walked the earth, we have had an element who are waiting. They waited for the flood, They waited for the flood to drain, They waited for the sun to come up, They were still waiting when their backs were burned deep with sunburn. They wait. Do you find these persons self educating at night school, NO, they are waiting in front of TV for life&#8217;s answers, do you find them evenings and weekends in the garden producing food for their families and communities, no they are waiting, mostly in the welfare queue, while state housing has thousands of barren backyards. Best choices are forethought and provisioning, these people dont make best choices. They wait for circumstances to befall them and then look for escapes. One convenient escape is the high interest lender. It is not the role of society to provide low interest loans representing low risk, with a built in subsidy by prudent taxpayers, to high risk borrowers who are in fact lifes low productivity &#8220;waiters&#8221;. </p>
<p>There are genuine people who are in need of welfare and a few who have a genuine need for emergency assitance, for which our welfare system, health care and Mps provide access. It is just ludicrous to imagine that a &#8220;car&#8221; is some form of necessity or right to people who only a decade ago were &#8220;waiting&#8221;, waiting for a bicycle or running water. Commodities are not rights nor their possesion and use, a right, it is a privilege of prudence and work, earned and cared for.  What is a &#8220;right&#8221;, is the &#8220;opportunity&#8221; to use your God given abilities to work, and to produce, in order that you might save, repay, deploy and maintain that which you would wish, for some, a car.</p>
<p>Long John Silver</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Munro</title>
		<link>http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/license-to-prey/comment-page-1/#comment-585</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Munro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:35:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werewolf.co.nz/?p=1335#comment-585</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not too sure about direct government used car sales - though as a job creation scheme they might have some merit - they might be better budded off existing organisations such as polytech motor trades departments or pacific churches, (or both) with some government funding.

A similar alliance, community groups and financial watchdogs, could run a joint campaign against loansharks, if the government really wants them gone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not too sure about direct government used car sales &#8211; though as a job creation scheme they might have some merit &#8211; they might be better budded off existing organisations such as polytech motor trades departments or pacific churches, (or both) with some government funding.</p>
<p>A similar alliance, community groups and financial watchdogs, could run a joint campaign against loansharks, if the government really wants them gone.</p>
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